Ponlop Rinpoche
Interviewed on September 30, 1992
JS: Rinpoche, can you say a little bit about your background?
PR: Actually, the historical background of the Dzokchen Ponlop lineage goes back to the eighteenth century. That's when the first Dzochen Ponlop appeared. And he went to Eastern Tibet with another teacher and established their seat in the Derge region of Eastern Tibet. And so most of the incarnations of the first Ponlop, including himself, have been in the yogic line, which is basically a kind of lineage putting strong emphasis on meditation practice and realization. And so, actually, it is a very strict Nyingmapa monastery, and the previous Ponlop, who was the sixth incarnation in line, was born in the same family as His Holiness the Sixteenth Karmapa. And so, he was the youngest brother of His Holiness, and so they spent a lot of time together in childhood at Tsurphu, the Karmapas' seat in Central Tibet, and then they escaped together in 1959 to Sikkim via Bhutan. And so, the previous Ponlop actually had a very strong connection with His Holiness, not only because of the family relationship, but he also had a strong spiritual connection. He received the major Kagyu empowerments and teachings from His Holiness, and he also had visions of different -- well, he had one vision of Mahakala, the two-armed Mahakala, a Karma Kagyu protector. And he painted, he painted this vision. He was a natural and gifted artist. He never learned painting, but all his paintings are very precise and very kind of professional, very beautiful paintings. We still have some of them in Rumtek. So this Mahakala tangka is in possession of His Holiness in Rumtek, and I have one of his paintings too. He died in Rumtek, and then I was born there. I was born in Rumtek in 1965 and recognized by His Holiness. And as far as I heard from my parents, His Holiness told my father before I was conceived. So he recognized me basically before I was conceived. And His Holiness even gave the details of my birth date and so forth, it was very kind of interesting thing to learn from my parents.
JS: Everyone is always curious to know, or maybe its just me (laughter), what does that mean to you, do you have a memory of that, the past?
PR: No, no nothing! I need some memory chips (laughter)! No, but I don't have any lucid memories of the past incarnations of what I was recognized, but because of my strong devotion and confidence in His Holiness, I think it must be something (laughter).
JS: What is your overall sense of Buddhism in the West?
PR: In the West? Well, I think its very interesting that actually I've been to many western countries many times and observed Tibetan Buddhism growing in every country. And I feel, generally, that it is a very fortunate time, you know, that Dharma is really growing in some aspects. And at the same time, I feel in all these past decades of Buddhism in the West, not only Tibetan Buddhism, but, in general, all the Buddhist schools, it seems it has not really taken root in western culture. And I feel it is really kind of time at this point to work on a deeper level of transplanting Dharma in western culture. It is time to take the root. And so in order to take Dharma complete root in western culture, it needs a lot of effort, a lot of work, you know, it is a mutual effort and a mutual work of spiritual friends and Dharma students.
JS: Your answer kind of hints a bit about the future, maybe if you could elaborate about it, what is your sense of what the future holds, will it take root in this way?
PR: I think it could. It could take root, since Buddhism does not have any strong form, any concrete form. I make an analogy of Buddhism: it is like pure water, and so it is very transparent, it is a pure essence. And so, depending on the container you pour this water in, it will adopt that shape and reflection to that color. It doesn't have any restrictions to shapes and color. It's water but not ice. And we're trying to kind of concretize this water, in many ways, you know, and that's the point where we have problems, that we try to concretize, solidify this water, try to turn this water into ice. Make a concrete shape and form, and there's a problem.
JS: When you speak of root, do numbers of people have meaning, like as rooted as Christianity?
PR: No, not in that sense, in the sense of quality of practice and knowledge. Buddhism is basically a self-knowledge, you know, so that's a very important element. And also one of the most important elements is to manifest this pure, genuineness out of spirituality into every aspect of our life, different aspects of our life must have this reflection of this self-knowledge, reflection of this genuine knowledge, transcendental knowledge. And so yes, so it is very much connected to our self-knowledge and how it manifests in our life. So it has to manifest in everyday life, not only the life of adults but also the life of our children. So if you don't work on this level of rooting Buddhism or transplanting Dharma in this generation, you could try to deny it, postpone it for tomorrow and tomorrow, and it will be difficult, much more difficult. And so considering not only our generation and our life but also hopefully benefitting future generations, it is very important.
JS: Could you talk about the term no-self, selfless? It seems to be a tricky one for us.
PR: Actually, it's a very long explanation, but to make it short, generally speaking, in Buddhism, all of the teachings are categorized into two realities or two truths, where you have the conventional truth and then the ultimate truth. So on the level of conventional truth there are no assertions, such as no-self. There's no strong teachings or practices talking about emptiness, selfless nature, and stuff like that, you know, but conventional is the conventional. So it works on an everyday life kind of aspect, an everyday life kind of thought pattern.
But when we come to the ultimate level, the second reality, which is the fundamental essence of our self, then that needs a lot more examination then this level, a lot more analysis within our mind. We have to know our existence clearly, much clearly. And so, therefore, when we do the analysis, when we do the examination to see what is self, what do we mean by "self," "existence of self," then it is basically very hard to pinpoint, pinpoint any solid existence. And so it's basically talking about being free from conceptual clinging, grasping to the self, being free from these kind of three-dimensional glasses that we are wearing, like a window of duality, being free from this window of duality of conceptual world or labelling and seeing the true nature of self, experiencing the genuine nature of self, nakedly, or more thoroughly. So, our relative or conventional communications and experiences are basically very similar to an experience of wearing these glasses of virtual reality [the third real-time animation computer program] seeing everything kind of truth distant and there, but actually it's all illusion.
JS: What is meant by the term "the three realms"?
PR: Well, three realms, we talk about, in general Buddhist Abhidharma literature we talk about three realms, that is, the realm of desire, the realm of form, and the realm of formless existence. And so that is a three. That is sometimes known as the ultra three existences, you know. And so realm of desire is referring to our human realm, and many other beings at a similar level with similar experiences. And we have the form realm and formless realm. These two are the realms of, these two are heavenly realms actually. And the realm of desire also includes a certain level of heaven realm, a certain level of gods' realm.
JS: When we recited the supplication for the rebirth of His Holiness Karmapa, it described Karmapa as having the three unsurpassable qualities of compassion, wisdom, and power. Can you say something about that aspect of power?
PR: Actually this power seems to be the manifestation of wisdom and compassion, the preceding two qualities. And so you know, yes, power is basically the energy, the wisdom, the transcendental energy of overcoming all the negative force of sentient beings, or for the overcoming obstacles, and that nature is basically the power. But when we expand this topic of power, then it also calls to, like, the vajrayana aspect of karma or activity. Vajrayana activity also includes this power, which in that sense is more. It has this power, this sense of conquering. At the same time, it has the quality of, like, magnetizing. So it is actually doing the two functions: first it overcomes, it conquers; and once it has overcome, then it has the quality of magnetizing.
JS: How does that work on a person to person level? I remember when I met the Karmapa I was quite overwhelmed and touched by somebody I had never met before, but just very changed. Is that related? Conquering and magnetizing?
PR: Yes, definitely! It's basically, as I said, the quality. It's basically the shining out of the quality of compassion and wisdom, manifesting out in many different aspects. So one aspect is actually conquering our ego at that level, you know, overcoming our ego of superiority, always thinking "I'm superior to anyone" and always having this basic kind of self-importance, self-clinging. And at that very level of meeting His Holiness, at that special event, then you kind of forget the ego, you kind of, as you described, are overwhelmed, and so you are totally enveloped in this light of compassion, this light of wisdom. So it's kind of actually giving you sense of gap experience, gap experience of, yes, fragment experience of His activity. It's a fragment in connection with our thought pattern, but it's a full experience in its own nature, in the nature of true experience of our mind, and in every aspect, it's a full experience. Even just a simplistic, very momentary flash or gap experience, that's also full experience in its true nature. But if you look at this gap experience from the view point of our conceptual reality, then it's a fragment experience.
JS: What do you dream about when you sleep or when you're awake? (laughter)
PR: Basically, I have very little dream, dream in the context of our usual reference. But, all life experience is a dream, a lucid dream. And actually, what I dream about in my life is, basically, I guess as we all are, dreaming about overcoming our tendencies, our basic tendencies, basic fear that we all go through, are going through. Yeah, I look at that as being simple, as there's nothing much to dream about. (laughter)
JS: In your sleeping, are you maintaining mindfulness and awareness?
PR: Trying to!(laughter) Its not easy!
JS: What are your fears?
PR: I guess as a samsaric being we have a certain common fear, our basic fundamental fear, is our, is death. And so that's the same with me, that fundamental fear of death with which we have to work and transcend.
JS: The actual physical dying or the moment to moment dying?
PR: Both, yes. In Buddhism, death means birth. Death is another expression of birth, and birth is another expression of death. And so it has many different levels.
JS: It's a rule that the best way to work with fear is to go right through it. What do you think of that idea?
PR: Penetrate our fear. That's the basic Buddhist method. That's the basic Buddhist teaching you know. So Buddhism is very rich in this context of working with our fear, the fear of death, for example, or any kind of fear. And so most of the methods are basically penetrating our fear, directly looking at fear and transcending that fear. And so one reaches the state of fearlessness. Or one goes beyond fear.
JS: You need preparation?
PR: We have to habituate. We have to habituate; we have to get used to this transcendental meditation or practice of transforming our fear in our meditation states first and then taking that into everyday life, and everyday experience of fear.
JS: What would it mean to be enlightened and live in an enlightened society?
PR: Well, enlightenment is awakening oneself completely, being in the state of awakened. And so that basically means completely being aware of our ego, completely having control over our ego, overcoming our ego, and breaking through this territory of egocentricity. And so living in an enlightened society or enlightened community would mean living in a world of ego-free zone! (laughter).
JS: Have we ever had ego-free zones?
PR: Well, We get a glimpse of it. A glimpse is a glimpse, as soon as you get it, it's gone; it's miles away.
JS: Where have you had glimpses of that?
PR: Well, basic Buddhist, especially Tibetan Buddhist meditation of vipasyanna is actually working on that level of developing this basic experience. So egolessness, basic experience of fundamental space. So being in an enlightened society has a lot of space. Going back to our fundamental space, experiencing that fundamental space and living in it. And so, just ego-free zone has a tremendous sense of space.
JS: I recently learned that if you were to enlarge the proton of an atom to the size of a dime and enlarge its orbiting electron to the size of a dime, that, in that proportion, the electron would be orbiting the proton at a distance of one quarter of a mile, a dime circling a dime one quarter of a mile away. That's how much space is right in the atom just on a mundane physical level of space, I suppose. It makes you think -- do you think there's any relationship?
PR: Yeah, I think so. I think, generally speaking, I feel there's a great relationship between modern physics and Buddhism. It would be very beneficial to combine in many aspects, yes.
JS: Have you done that?
PR: Unfortunately, my knowledge in modern physics is very little -- almost none, zero. But I would like to learn more. Yeah, I like to learn everything! (laughter)
JS: That's a problem, when you want to learn everything!
PR: It's a problem, but at the same time, it's a very good basic Buddhist heart, that is, to want to learn, being skeptical and, yes, in some sense its a craving for knowledge. I think that its a good quality.
JS: Well thank you very much, I appreciate it.
PR: No problemmo (laughter)
Buddhism